Curse

Shaikar · Feb 05, 2012, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

It's hard to justify not bringing a fully-specced Channeling rit, especially on a "melee support" teambuild. Splinter Weapon is arguably the best buff available to melee players.

Splinter weapon is indeed awesome for melee players, but you don't need 16 channeling - 14 is the sweet spot.

More damage is always nice of course but 14 channeling gets you the 5th attack, with the 6th not coming until 17 spec. So the maximum gain from going from 13->14 spec is almost double the max gain going from 14->16 (+177 damage vs +90).

3.142 · Feb 06, 2012, 11:25 AM // 11:25

People over on PvX were saying this lacks damage so I put together a quick video.

It shows optimal situations were everything is balled up and less optimal cases where you have alot of clean up to do.

youtube.com/watch?v=PHDB5IoRRYI

Be warned, it's VERY low quality.

Daesu · Feb 06, 2012, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

People over on PvX were saying this lacks damage so I put together a quick video.

It shows optimal situations were everything is balled up and less optimal cases where you have alot of clean up to do.

youtube.com/watch?v=PHDB5IoRRYI

Be warned, it's VERY low quality.

I believe many of them are comparing your build against this which is similar to the melee mesmer merc build I use except that they replaced the BiP with another RoJ smiter and took out half of a dom mesmer bar for healing spells. Not too bad if they really want to get rid of the BiPer.

3.142 · Feb 06, 2012, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I believe many of them are comparing your build against this which is similar to the melee mesmer merc build I use except that they replaced the BiP with another RoJ smiter and took out half of a dom mesmer bar for healing spells. Not too bad if they really want to get rid of the BiPer.

And that team has no MoP and relies on a DoT AoE on a 20 sec cooldown for most of its damage.

My team is capable of killing things that didn't ball well due to the 3 offensive mesmers, curses necro ench hate skills and even IV.

That team has less damage and the damage is in a far less useful form, i'm not even sure it has a meaningfull amount of healing more too make up for this.

Oh, also my team is mostly nearby range while that is all adjacent apart from the e surge mes. Someone please tell me how RoJway beats this in every way in order to make this not viable.

I know it might seem like i'm complaining at you but i'm not. Just a general rant.

Daesu · Feb 06, 2012, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

And that team has no MoP and relies on a DoT AoE on a 20 sec cooldown for most of its damage.

My team is capable of killing things that didn't ball well due to the 3 offensive mesmers, curses necro ench hate skills and even IV.

That team has less damage and the damage is in a far less useful form, i'm not even sure it has a meaningfull amount of healing more too make up for this.

Oh, also my team is mostly nearby range while that is all adjacent apart from the e surge mes. Someone please tell me how RoJway beats this in every way in order to make this not viable.

I know it might seem like i'm complaining at you but i'm not. Just a general rant.

Actually we talked about this before that MoP is awkward without AP, but you replied that you hate smiting heroes (post #33).

Since they went with RoJ, they have a snare (Binding Chains). Curses necros are great with debuffs but they are far from being the damage dealing super stars especially compared to Roj+snare on a mob. Enchantment hate is also conditional.

And yes, healing/prots is a weakness in their build but that also depends on personal playing style.

3.142 · Feb 06, 2012, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Actually we talked about this before that MoP is awkward without AP, but you replied that you hate smiting heroes (post #33).

Since they went with RoJ, they have a snare (Binding Chains). Curses necros are great with debuffs but they are far from being the damage dealing super stars especially compared to Roj+snare on a mob. Enchantment hate is also conditional.

And yes, healing/prots is a weakness in their build but that also depends on personal playing style.

If all 5 ticks of 2 RoJ's hit you will do 112 damage from burning and 450 damage from the skill itself for a total of 562 damage.

Now I really can't be bothered to do the maths but a human dagger spammer will attack more than twice a second and assuming he has the same 5 seconds he will get 10 procs for 400 damage atleast. MoP is one non elite that casts faster and can be placed on a boss to deal loads of damage to everything he runs near while you're glued to him. 2 RoJ's are two elite slots.

Both have 20 sec recharge, both cost 10e, MoP casts faster and one MoP seriously out performs one RoJ. If you're going to say that the MoP target can die early meaning less damage the vid shows that isn't a problem.

If it's the lack of binding chains that is the problem that can easily be made optional for people who feel like taking it. I cba to micro it personally.

Also the Curses necro has enchantment removal with a flat 100 damage and the other ench hating skills (which are nearby range) and on top of that it brings de buffs.

itiscurtains · Feb 06, 2012, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I agree - that pvx build is in dire need of MoP. RoJ is great, but MoP should be a staple. I can't help but think the build would be improved by dropping the Me/Rt for a Curses N/Rt.
But then, of course, it would no longer be a merc build.

Xenomortis · Feb 06, 2012, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

Now I really can't be bothered to do the maths but a human dagger spammer will attack more than twice a second and assuming he has the same 5 seconds he will get 10 procs for 400 damage atleast. MoP is one non elite that casts faster and can be placed on a boss to deal loads of damage to everything he runs near while you're glued to him. 2 RoJ's are two elite slots.

You only reach an expectation of two attacks per second, sustained, when you have Locust's Fury and Critical Agility. Even then, I'm not you actually reach it.

3.142 · Feb 06, 2012, 11:44 PM // 23:44

^I got that from a wiki talk page so it could be a bit off. With max IAS, 14 DM for double strikes and spamming 1/4 second skills I imagine it would be about 2 attacks per second.

Daesu · Feb 07, 2012, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

If all 5 ticks of 2 RoJ's hit you will do 112 damage from burning and 450 damage from the skill itself for a total of 562 damage.

Now I really can't be bothered to do the maths but a human dagger spammer will attack more than twice a second and assuming he has the same 5 seconds he will get 10 procs for 400 damage atleast. MoP is one non elite that casts faster and can be placed on a boss to deal loads of damage to everything he runs near while you're glued to him. 2 RoJ's are two elite slots.

Both have 20 sec recharge, both cost 10e, MoP casts faster and one MoP seriously out performs one RoJ. If you're going to say that the MoP target can die early meaning less damage the vid shows that isn't a problem.

If it's the lack of binding chains that is the problem that can easily be made optional for people who feel like taking it. I cba to micro it personally.

Also the Curses necro has enchantment removal with a flat 100 damage and the other ench hating skills (which are nearby range) and on top of that it brings de buffs.

You are comparing a generic melee mercway against your generic melee mercway build. Are you saying that your build requires an assassin to work well? Otherwise you should not be comparing your assassin's damage against that of a RoJ hero's. It would be comparing apples and oranges.

If you can make the AI use an AP+MoP build well then you would probably win your argument. It is just more awkward to use MoP without AP because you should hex the adjacent target with MoP, then attack the real target letting Splinter do its work.

In the optimal case, you can argue that you can get off more damage, I haven't done the calculations myself. But RoJ+snare is easier to use so less chances of making a mistake, plus they have a higher level SoH. Personally I would replace one RoJ with UA for the uber res, in certain areas, but that is just me.

I am sure your build is workable but I can understand why theirs looks more damage intensive. If you can show that your build would work better in a tough HM elite area while theirs would fail (i.e. because their healing is weaker) then you may have a case.

3.142 · Feb 07, 2012, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You are comparing a generic melee mercway against your generic melee mercway build. Are you saying that your build requires an assassin to work well? Otherwise you should not be comparing your assassin's damage against that of a RoJ hero's. It would be comparing apples and oranges.

Sin probably is the worst at MoP triggers. Wars and Dervs have HB/VoS and Eremites/WA.

Konker2020 · Feb 07, 2012, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

If all 5 ticks of 2 RoJ's hit you will do 112 damage from burning and 450 damage from the skill itself for a total of 562 damage.

You haven't factored in the fact that there will be multiple enemies within the range, if you're referring to single target damage, then your math is correct, but at the same time, you can't compare MoP under different circumstances and still have a fair assessment.

3.142 · Feb 07, 2012, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

You haven't factored in the fact that there will be multiple enemies within the range, if you're referring to single target damage, then your math is correct, but at the same time, you can't compare MoP under different circumstances and still have a fair assessment.

I think I see what you mean and yes, out of 10 things being hit MoP will hit 9 where RoJ hits 10 but because you're attacking that one it really doesn't matter.

Konker2020 · Feb 08, 2012, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142

I think I see what you mean and yes, out of 10 things being hit MoP will hit 9 where RoJ hits 10 but because you're attacking that one it really doesn't matter.

Well no, not exactly.

Let's assume there are 10 enemies and both skills are spec'd at 15.

Ray of Judgement deals 45 damage per second as well as causes burning for 3 seconds, causing an additional 42 damage. This totals to 267 damage per enemy for a grand total of 2670 damage.

Mark of Pain hits 9 of those 10 enemies for 40 damage per hit. Over those 5 seconds, an Assassin (your class) running a JS>FF>DB spam will hit approximately 9 times. So that's 9x9x40. 3240 damage.

2670 <- Ray of Judgement
3240 <- Mark of Pain

This assumes that the circumstances are identical and does not factor in the damage from attacks or other skills for obvious reasons. So yes, you're correct in your standing. Throw in Daesu's argument of Strength of [email protected] is another 25 damage per hit for an additional 225 damage. Mark of Pain still outdoes Ray, yet he's correct in saying it's easier for the AI to manage. Mind you, you could always take both :S.

3.142 · Feb 08, 2012, 10:15 AM // 10:15

^Me being a bit pedantic here but you get 8 seconds of burning with RoJ :P

Against all my insticts I'm going to do it.

I'm adding a smiting monk.

Wish me luck.

Defile/Defy ench won't really be missed so I'll drop them and make him take a few resto skills.

Bright Star Shine · Feb 08, 2012, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Personally, I'd swap the SoS with a UA MM, for two reasons. You're running a melee support, but are not taking a MM. Wut? Sense: it makes none. Secondly, having UA on a hero is incredibly good for high end areas, because when you die you will only notice because of the death penalty. You'll instantly respawn because of how heroes use it. In easy areas you could take Aura of the Lich over UA.

Omaric · Feb 08, 2012, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Has anyone considered just having 1 M/Me with arcane echo to get your 2 RoJ's? Helps compact your team.

MisterB · Feb 08, 2012, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

This assumes that the circumstances are identical and does not factor in the damage from attacks or other skills for obvious reasons.

I question that assumption, since Splinter Weapon should be in play on a player triggering MoP. There is no equivalent damage multiplier for RoJ. But yes, you can also bring both.

itiscurtains · Feb 08, 2012, 06:47 PM // 18:47

The new build looks good. I really like this version - it's quite similar to what I run on my character, except that I bring a second RoJ instead of the Illusion mesmer. I'll definitely give this a whirl, though.
A few minor nit-picky things:
I still don't like not having Spirit Siphon on the rit. Essence Strike just isn't very good. But I suppose that's up to personal preference.
I'd replace P Drain on the RoJ with Castigation Sig. Interrupts don't stack well, and you've already got a bunch of them in the team. This opens up the monk's secondary and gives you some spare points to play with, which might be helpful. I usually like to bring SoA on my Smiting monks - a 12, 11, 6 split works for that.
Lastly, again just a personal preference, I don't like that your only two rezzes are on the N/Rt and the ST. It makes rezzing in-battle a tricky affair. You want your N/Rt to be able to heal at will, and your ST to be able to put up a steady stream of spirits. I'd try to fit the rezzes elsewhere - one on the RoJ monk, maybe Sig of Return on one of the mesmers.

3.142 · Feb 08, 2012, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

The new build looks good. I really like this version - it's quite similar to what I run on my character, except that I bring a second RoJ instead of the Illusion mesmer. I'll definitely give this a whirl, though.
A few minor nit-picky things:
I still don't like not having Spirit Siphon on the rit. Essence Strike just isn't very good. But I suppose that's up to personal preference.
I'd replace P Drain on the RoJ with Castigation Sig. Interrupts don't stack well, and you've already got a bunch of them in the team. This opens up the monk's secondary and gives you some spare points to play with, which might be helpful. I usually like to bring SoA on my Smiting monks - a 12, 11, 6 split works for that.
Lastly, again just a personal preference, I don't like that your only two rezzes are on the N/Rt and the ST. It makes rezzing in-battle a tricky affair. You want your N/Rt to be able to heal at will, and your ST to be able to put up a steady stream of spirits. I'd try to fit the rezzes elsewhere - one on the RoJ monk, maybe Sig of Return on one of the mesmers.

The lack of Spirit Sihon and Casti Sig are down to the AI just not being able to use them. unless they're forced to kite Spirit Siphon will cost them energy and the monks don't target attacking foes with Casti. The problem is smaller when it comes to Casti but still.

Edit rather than double post: I'm loving the spec 15 SoH with the Smiter but I am so underwhelmed by RoJ it's stupid. By the time it lands the spike is either done or failing and I'm going to have to c-space. I probably won't put this on the team in the OP but I am taking Signet of Judgment over RoJ.